Jung Chang (Wild Swans author) — Living through history's largest man-made famine

张戎(《狂飙》作者)——历经历史最大的人为饥荒

Dwarkesh Podcast

2023-11-29

1 小时 31 分钟
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单集简介 ...

A true honor to speak with Jung Chang. She is the author of Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China (sold 15+ million copies worldwide) and Mao: The Unknown Story. We discuss: - what it was like growing up during the Cultural Revolution as the daughter of a denounced official - why the CCP continues to worship the biggest mass murderer in human history. - how exactly Communist totalitarianism was able to subjugate a billion people - why Chinese leaders like Xi and Deng who suffered from the Cultural Revolution don't condemn Mao - how Mao starved and killed 40 million people during The Great Leap Forward in order to exchange food for Soviet weapons Wild Swans is the most moving book I've ever read. It was a real privilege to speak with its author. Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here. Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes. Timestamps (00:00:00) - Growing up during Cultural Revolution (00:15:58) - Could officials have overthrown Mao? (00:34:09) - Great Leap Forward (00:48:12) - Modern support of Mao (01:03:24) - Life as peasant (01:21:30) - Psychology of communist society Get full access to Dwarkesh Podcast at www.dwarkesh.com/subscribe
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  • And my father spoke up against Mao's policies.

  • He was arrested, tortured, driven insane.

  • And my mother was under tremendous pressure to denounce my father.

  • She refused.

  • And my mother was made to kneel on broken glass.

  • She was paraded in the streets where children spat at her and threw stones at her.

  • The desire to write never left me.

  • So in the following years, when I was working as a peasant and as a barefoot doctor,

  • as a steel worker and the electrician, I was always writing in my head with an imaginary pen.

  • Today, I have the pleasure of interviewing Hyeong-Chang.

  • Her first book, Wild Swans, has sold over 15 million copies worldwide.

  • The US diplomat, George Kennan, described the Gulag Kargopalago he said,

  • This is the greatest and most powerful single indictment of a political regime ever to be leveled in modern times.

  • And when I read that quote,

  • I realized that this is exactly how I describe your books, Wild Swans, obviously,

  • but also your biography of Mao, titled Mao, The Unknown Story, both I wish we'll talk about today.

  • It is a true honor to speak with you.

  • Thank you very much for having me.

  • So we will get it to Mao and his atrocities in a second,

  • but let us begin by Would you mind laying the scene for us?