Rebroadcast: An FBI agent went undercover in America’s extremist groups. Here’s what he learned.

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• 00:00

  Hey there, it's Shamita here.

• 00:02

  Our team is taking a break over the holidays.

• 00:04

  So while we're away, we wanted to share an audience favorite from earlier this year.

• 00:08

  This was actually our most listened to episode of In Conversation for 2025.

• 00:13

  I know it's stuck with me.

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  I hope you enjoy it.

• 00:19

  This is In Conversation from Apple News.

• 00:22

  I'm Shamita Basu.

• 00:24

  Today, the undercover FBI agent who infiltrated America's new Nazi groups.

• 00:36

  If you've ever seen photos of modern-day militia groups or white supremacist groups,

• 00:42

  you've probably noticed some common themes among the members,

• 00:45

  mostly men, mostly white, in tactical gear,

• 00:48

  with tattoos, bandanas, and patches displaying their beliefs.

• 00:53

  And if my guests today, Scott Payne, were in one of those photos,

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  you probably wouldn't be able to tell him apart from the rest of them.

• 01:00

  I usually say it jokingly, but I'm like, these are my people.

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  When I say these are my people, I'm not saying a white supremacist group are my people.

• 01:07

  I'm just saying my skill set and my look and what I do leads me to those kind of cases.

• 01:13

  Scott is a retired FBI agent who spent part of his career undercover in American hate groups.

• 01:19

  He's out with a new book called Code Name Pale Horse,

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