642. How to Wage Peace, According to Tony Blinken

如何维护和平,托尼·布林肯如是说

Freakonomics Radio

2025-07-25

1 小时 6 分钟
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The former secretary of state isn’t a flamethrower, but he certainly has strong opinions. In this wide-ranging conversation with Stephen Dubner, he gives them all: on Israel, Gaza, China, Iran, Russia, Biden, Trump — and the rest of the world.   SOURCES:Antony Blinken, former Secretary of State.  RESOURCES:"Evaluating the impact of two decades of USAID interventions and projecting the effects of defunding on mortality up to 2030: a retrospective impact evaluation and forecasting analysis," by Daniella Cavalcanti, Lucas de Oliveira Ferreira de Sales, Andrea Ferreira da Silva, Elisa Basterra, Daiana Pena, Caterina Monti, Gonzalo Barreix, Natanael Silva, Paula Vaz, Francisco Saute, Gonzalo Fanjul, Quique Bassat, Denise Naniche, James Macinko, and Davide Rasella (The Lancet, 2025)."What Bombs Can’t Do in Iran," by Karim Sadjadpour (New York Times, 2025)."A New Palestinian Offer for Peace With Israel," by Elliot Kaufman (Wall Street Journal, 2025)."America’s Strategy of Renewal," by Antony Blinken (Foreign Affairs, 2024).
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  • If you are looking to have a good conversation with someone who wields great political power,

  • when is the best time to have that conversation?

  • The most obvious answer is while they're in office, but when they're in that vortex,

  • they have strong incentives to not speak candidly or to just promote their agenda.

  • Another common time for a conversation like this is the exit interview,

  • but the exit interview can get tied up with the exhaustion or relief, regret.

  • Eventually,

  • this person may publish their memoirs and they'll do some interviews to promote the book.

  • But by then, they may be in factory production mode,

  • churning out the same answers in every interview.

  • So when is the best time to have a good conversation with a person like this?

  • Is there maybe a sweet spot sometime after leaving office, but before publishing their memoirs?

  • Maybe while they're still writing and spending all their waking hours sifting through their accomplishments and their what could have beens.

  • Let's hope that is the sweet spot

  • because that's when we caught Antony Blinken for the conversation you're about to hear.

  • Blinken was Secretary of State for the entirety of the Biden presidency.

  • He was considered one of Biden's favorite and most trusted allies.

  • Their time together goes back to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

  • Blinken has spent more than three decades working on U.S. foreign policy.

  • He also served in the Clinton and Obama administrations.