BTC243: Jim Chanos Vs Pierre Rochard MSTR mNAV debate (Bitcoin Podcast)

比特币243:吉姆·查诺斯对皮埃尔·罗查德MSTR mNAV辩论(比特币播客)

We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network

2025-07-16

58 分钟
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单集简介 ...

Jim Chanos and Pierre Rochard face off on Bitcoin-native corporates, debating governance, valuation models, capital structure, and whether BTC on the balance sheet adds value or risk. IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN: 00:00 - Intro  02:27 - Why Jim Chanos is short BTC companies but long Bitcoin itself 05:44 - Pierre Rochard's view on using corporate debt/equity to acquire BTC 13:03 - Capital structure tools best suited for BTC-native companies 14:12 - Whether BTC treasuries offer more than just bull-market beta 19:23 - The risks of NAV premiums and misaligned management incentives 20:16 - Debate over proper valuation frameworks: NAV vs. cash flow 24:30 - Could BTC treasuries evolve into financial infrastructure—or stay niche? 26:25 - The systemic implications of too many firms holding BTC on balance sheets 36:22 - 2030 predictions: spot BTC vs. BTC-native equities vs. ETFs 40:17 - What a “responsible” BTC treasury strategy could look like Disclaimer: Slight discrepancies in the timestamps may occur due to podcast platform differences. BOOKS AND RESOURCES Jim’s X Account. Pierre’s X Account. Related Episode: Bitcoin Energy Survey and the Speculative Attack w/ Pierre Rochard. Check out all the books mentioned and discussed in our podcast episodes⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Enjoy ad-free episodes when you subscribe to our⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Premium Feed⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. NEW TO THE SHOW? Join the exclusive ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TIP Mastermind Community⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to engage in meaningful stock investing discussions with Stig, Clay, Kyle, and the other community members. Follow our official social media accounts: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X (Twitter)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Check out our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bitcoin Fundamentals Starter Packs⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Browse through all our episodes (complete with transcripts) ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Try our tool for picking stock winners and managing our portfolios: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TIP Finance Tool⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Enjoy exclusive perks from our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠favorite Apps and Services⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Get smarter about valuing businesses in just a few minutes each week through our newsletter, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Intrinsic Value Newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Learn how to better start, manage, and grow your business with the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠best business podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. SPONSORS Support our free podcast by supporting our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠sponsors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠: SimpleMining Hardblock AnchorWatch Onramp Human Rights Foundation Unchained Intuit Vanta reMarkable Shopify Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://theinvestorspodcastnetwork.supportingcast.fm
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单集文稿 ...

  • You're listening to TIP.

  • Hey, everyone.

  • Welcome to this Wednesday's release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals podcast.

  • On today's show,

  • we have two very special guests to have a little debate about Bitcoin treasury companies and the premiums they should potentially fetch in the market.

  • On the one side of the debate, we have legendary short seller, Mr. Jim Chanos.

  • He's a Wall Street veteran with legendary calls like shorting Enron amongst many others.

  • And then on the other corner, we have Mr. Pierre Rochard,

  • who's a longtime Bitcoin OG and financial expert defending the premium that should be paid for these treasury companies.

  • Pierre and his friend, Michael Goldstein,

  • were the originators of the paper on Bitcoin's speculative attack on the dollar,

  • which many people in the Bitcoin space hear all the time,

  • but might not know Pierre was the first person to write about it.

  • So if you're in finance, you're probably going to love this conversation.

  • If you're more of a casual observer, the financial jargon might be a little heavy at times,

  • but I really try my hardest to make it accessible for all the listeners and wrap up and provide descriptions along the way.

  • One last thing I just want to say, I love the power of the internet and online social media.

  • Don't laugh too hard,

  • but this whole conversation happened because one person on X who goes by the name SpaceBullHodl58k,

  • 13 percenter, ADIQ hoarding man-made numbers,