Are bureaucrats a force for good? With Michael Lewis and Gillian Tett (Part Two)

官僚是善的力量吗?与迈克尔·刘易斯和吉莉安·泰特(第二部分)

Intelligence Squared

2025-07-07

40 分钟
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单集简介 ...

The concept of government is under attack. In the United States, Donald Trump has fired tens of thousands of federal workers; ignored congressional statutes; insulted judges; and allowed Elon Musk, the world’s richest man, access to sensitive government information in a slash-and-burn campaign against the US government. In June 2025 Michael Lewis, the renowned author of bestselling non-fiction masterpieces including Moneyball, The Big Short, Flash Boys and Liar’s Poker, came to the Intelligence Squared stage to tell the inside story of how the Trump administration is dismantling the government and how potentially disastrous the consequences for us all might be. Drawing from his new collection of essays Who is Government? The Untold Story of Public Service, Lewis argued that we must remember the often overlooked ways government officials do work that is deeply consequential to our lives. He shared impactful stories of public service, such as the story of a coal miner devoted to making mine roofs less likely to collapse and an Internal Revenue Service agent fighting tax evasion like a character straight out of a crime thriller. --- If you'd like to become a Member and get access to all our full ad free conversations, plus all of our Members-only content, just visit intelligencesquared.com/membership to find out more. For £4.99 per month you'll also receive: - Full-length and ad-free Intelligence Squared episodes, wherever you get your podcasts - Bonus Intelligence Squared podcasts, curated feeds and members exclusive series - 15% discount on livestreams and in-person tickets for all Intelligence Squared events  ...  Or Subscribe on Apple for £4.99: - Full-length and ad-free Intelligence Squared podcasts - Bonus Intelligence Squared podcasts, curated feeds and members exclusive series … Already a subscriber? Thank you for supporting our mission to foster honest debate and compelling conversations! Visit intelligencesquared.com to explore all your benefits including ad-free podcasts, exclusive bonus content and early access. … Subscribe to our newsletter here to hear about our latest events, discounts and much more. https://www.intelligencesquared.com/newsletter-signup/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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  • Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet.

  • I'm producer Mia Sorrenti, and I'm joined today by Head of Programming, Conor Boyle.

  • Conor, what can we expect from today's episode?

  • Well, today we have a treat for our listeners.

  • We recently hosted Michael Lewis in London, the acclaimed author of books including Moneyball, The Big Short, Flash Boys, and Liar's Poker, to discuss the theme of his new collection of essays, which is called Who is Government?

  • The Untold Story of Public Service.

  • The argument he's really making is that government is under attack across the world, whether it's Elon Musk's Doge department in the United States, whether it's Keir Starmer here in the UK looking to crack down on the so-called flabby state and fire lots of civil servants.

  • The whole concept of government is really under attack, and he's trying to remind people of some of the things that government do, which... makes all our lives better by telling stories such as the story of a coal miner devoted to making mine roofs less likely to collapse, to the IRS, the Internal Revenue Service, fighting tax evasion to ensure corruption doesn't become rife in the United States.

  • So it's a really interesting concept.

  • And he was in conversation with the FT's Gillian Tett, who people will know as well.

  • An increasingly relevant topic as well for us here in the UK as Nigel Farage's reform looks to emulate Elon Musk's Doge department in the US.

  • And we'll see what that means for our local councils as well.

  • So unfortunately relevant for us here across the pond as well.

  • So let's get into the conversation now, live at London's Emmanuel Centre.

  • Which character would you like to make a movie about?

  • So the first, I mean, tell me, just tell a story that the first, so I assign, I let these, I get these writers, it's Dave Eggers and Kamau Bell and Casey Sepp and Geraldine Brooks and John Lanchester and Sarah Val.

  • I get them out there and they all find stories in a hot minute.

  • Like it was not hard for them to find material.

  • We could have done five of these and with equally good material.

  • And then I realized, oh shit, I've got to write something.