Welcome to the World in Ten.
In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security.
I'm Toby Gillis, joined today by Alex Dibble.
As Donald Trump reveals his sweeping tariffs on what he's called Liberation Day,
every nation on the planet is digesting what it means for them and working out how they'll request concessions so the damage can be minimized.
Could there be unintended consequences though that'll weaken America's position as the economic and security leader,
and even hand an advantage to China?
Our guest today is Jonathan Hillman, Senior Fellow for Geoeconomics at the Council on Foreign Relations,
who has also served as a senior advisor to three U.S. Cabinet officials.
Jonathan, where do you stand on Trump's use of tariffs as a first resort to exert global influence,
but also to establish international equality for normal Americans?
So there's a lot of questions about the scope, the scale and the speed of what will be announced.
I think the speed part is really important
because President Trump has discussed these tariffs sometimes as a negotiating tool.
He's talked about them in other ways too, as being maybe more permanent for raising revenue for the government.
But as a negotiating tool, the speed part is really important.
And so I'm hoping that there's a little room for negotiation with partners so that we could get into a more predictable,
stable place.
That's interesting because many think the sweeping,
truly global tariffs are actually a show of America first by Trump and